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First results OE3FVU

Author OE3FVU
Forums Member
#1 - Posted: 20 Jun 2010 16:32
I have been testing to receive MSJT signals on 2m, but not very succesfully. Although there were nice reflections, nothing was decoded in 80% of the cases, while in 10% the decodes were wrong. Only 10% was OK. I am not certain what the reason can be. I tested on 2 different set-PC combinations with the same result. In fact, there was no consistancy: in some cases one setup decoded well, while the other was non or ill-decoding or the other way around.
Apart from that I miss the config possibilities as for FSK441, and if I change the setup parameters to go back to default the next time I start QSJT8.
Doesn't seem that JTMS will be my favorite. At least not for the time being. On the other hand, Joe is great spending so much time for all of us....
73 - Franz - OE3FVU
PS did not test any other modes yet.
Author DL8EBW
Team member
#2 - Posted: 21 Jun 2010 07:37
Hallo Franz,

nearly the same result here - I was listen in some tests
(did not myself tx) with the PC I have installed and config
as WSJT 7 (ext. audio board is DELTA 44).

In my opinion the rate here was 10% decodes at all - not
all of it was ok and several missdecodes made...

Still a long way to go for Joe, K1JT.
Again my 1 cent about it - 4.9.8 was best FSK441 version
until now (all after was not as gd decoding... )

73 de Guy DL8EBW
Team of MMMonVHF
Author PA5DD
Forums Member
#3 - Posted: 21 Jun 2010 10:45
I do not see how this mode could be interesting at all since it does not support standard MS reporting. The only two reports that can be encoded is 26 and 27 as I understand the documentation.
Author DL8EBW
Team member
#4 - Posted: 22 Jun 2010 03:15
Hi Uffe,

correct! but I hope its really a BETA and we have a chance to get
in our requirements for a valid QSO later on - these moment it seems
to me its a "test at user side" and not a ready product....

The biggest problem I do see, if we do NOT get those requirements into
it, the community have to stay together, tell it to Joe and do not use
it - in some month there are 2 systems which NOT able to communicate
each other! Think about what happens on an expedition if some take
the "always latest version" from the server...

73s Guy DL8EBW
Team of MMMonVHF
Author PA5DD
Forums Member
#5 - Posted: 22 Jun 2010 05:18
There are not bits enough in the message format to carry full MS reporting, so we are not just talking a minor tweak.
Author DL8EBW
Team member
#6 - Posted: 22 Jun 2010 06:35
OK Uffe,

if so, its only way to carry on with FSK441 up to WSJT 7 here in Europe!
BUT - lets first see if Joe is not able to full fill the requirements!
Good time - maybe see you in FH (HamRadio) on saturday

73 de Guy DL8EBW
Team of MMMonVHF
Author DM1CG
Forums Member
#7 - Posted: 24 Jun 2010 04:43
Helll all

Testend yesterday.
JTMS most time false or no decode.
JT64 most time no decode with unfreezed! Freezed go
Signal must be brettern then -17
some signals were around -10 more then 6 sync but no decode
JT8 decodes also only freezed the text messages like call call loc
The shorthands really hard to decode signals brettern -10


Same stations in JT65 no problem to decode with same signals.

Best 73 de Carsten
Author DL8EBW
Team member
#8 - Posted: 28 Jun 2010 10:16 - Edited by: DL8EBW
hi ho all...

did have some good discussions with some MS-DXer at the HAM RADIO
in Friederichshafen (biggest Exhibition in DL, or better say in Europe)
past days and all did tell the same...

As long as the requirements for an FULL MS QSO (as described in
paragraph 8.d.ii, App.4 - Revised MS Procedure - Interim Meeting,
Vienna (2004)) is NOT fullfilled (as now in WSJT8) we shall stay at
FSK441 from WSJT 7 (or earlier) in europe!

As well it make NO sence to have only the version which decode from
up 144 ms - we do wants to stay at version which puzzle us the 40 ms
and 60ms reflections...

Also the "hashed calls" solution is NOT usable at expeditions!
They need prior to have the facility (now as STANDARD) to see more
than one caller and that during an other QSO is going on...

We (MMMonVHF) will send these conclusion to Joe, K1JT, as a short
info whats the "mouth to mouth" propaganda here in Europe and hope
he will find a solution after his BETA tests to come back for a version
on WSJT 8 which will be usuable here as well

73s de Guy DL8EBW
Team of MMMonVHF

ps.
maybe you can spot here as well your call/name to show Joe the
community wishes....
Author OE3FVU
Forums Member
#9 - Posted: 28 Jun 2010 11:18
Hi Guy,
Thanks for your efforts in letting Joe know that we all appreciate his work, but that the WSJT 8 version is not really suitable for Europe. I would say that there is no need for a WSJT 8 at all, as WSJT 7 is really working well (except for the Echo Mode in EME).
73 Franz - OE3FVU
Author GW8IZR
Forums Member
#10 - Posted: 28 Jun 2010 11:18
Guy said:
Again my 1 cent about it - 4.9.8 was best FSK441 version
until now (all after was not as gd decoding... )

Hello all

I agree that later versions were not as good - but thought Joe had stated that there had been no changes?

I also feel FSK441 is more succesful on 70MHz than jt6m - Many times I have observed QSO's take a long time that would have been done with and in log in a few pings of '441.


What about 70CM trials with new WSJT8 - anyone tried with vy short pings or does someone wnat to try?
Author K1JT
Forums Member
#11 - Posted: 29 Jun 2010 17:30
My sincere thanks to all who have provided feedback on the experimental testing of WSJT8!

The main purpose of these tests was to generate many on-the-air recordings of signals using the four new experimental modes JTMS, ISCAT, JT64, and JT8. These modes use a variety of schemes for synchronization, source encoding, error-control coding, and modulation -- most of them quite different from the protocols in WSJT7. The tests were aimed at establishing how well each scheme performs under challenging weak-signal conditions. This goal has been accomplished very effectively, and I'm grateful to all those who sent me their recordings.

Here are some early conclusions based on the many reports received from around the world.

First, some technical results:
----------------------------------

1. The synchronization, coding, and modulation schemes built into JT8 and JT64 are effective. Both modes work well at HF; they also work well for EME (although not with the decoders that were distributed in WSJT8 r1944). The decoders for both modes are sub-optimal in a variety of ways, sometimes annoyingly so. They would need further work before they could be declared suitable for a production release of WSJT8.

2. The modulation and coding scheme in JTMS works well for meteor scatter at VHF. In particular, it has been clearly established that MSK ("minimum shift keying") is a viable modulation technique for the MS path. Phase locking of a signal can be done reliably over the duration of meteor pings and bursts. The bandwidth efficiency of MSK is very attractive. A clear disadvantage of JTMS relative to FSK441 is that JTMS cannot make good use of pings shorter than about 75 ms.

3. The ISCAT mode is highly effective for its intended purpose -- ionospheric scatter at 50 MHz -- and also for multi-hop Es signals too weak for successful SSB or CW QSOs. I now have on hand many examples of recorded ISCAT signals that decode perfectly while being essentially inaudible and invisible on the waterfall display.

Now, some user-level results:
-----------------------------------

4. Many successful QSOs have been made with each of the new experimental modes, both on their primarily intended propagation paths and on others. The WSJT8 decoders are less polished and slower than those in WSJT7 (as was known to be true, even before any field tests were solicited).

5. Some users in IARU Region 1 are unhappy with the structured message formats of JTMS and ISCAT, even though these structures are a super-set of the well accepted ones in JT65. The reluctance seems to arise from a wish to adhere strictly to procedures for MS QSOs dictated in Appendix 4, "Revised Meteor Scatter Procedures", described in the VHF/UHF/Microwaves Committee Report Interim Meeting, Vienna 2004 (see www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/vie04_02.rtf).

On this side of the Atlantic, we consider a QSO valid when operators have exchanged callsigns, signal reports, and rogers. We do not dictate the precise arrangement of information in the transmissions conveying these bits of information.

The Region 1 VHF Managers Handbook, updated in May 2010, adopts the same approach as used here in Region 2 (see
www.physics/princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/VHF_Handbook_V5_42.pdf ,
pp. 98-105). The WSJT8 message structures fully support the requirements for valid QSOs laid out in the 2010 Handbook, which (I have assumed) supersedes the 2004 document. If I am mistaken, I hope someone will correct me.

6. Apparently someone has concluded (and "explained" to others) that hashed callsigns are not usable by a DXpedition because the operator would want to decode more than one caller while a QSO is going on. In fact, there is no such problem. Hashed callsigns can be used very effectively in such a situation. Many stations could be calling the DX operator at once, and no confusion need arise over who is calling and who is being worked. No doubt if WSJT8 is to survive, its eventual User's Guide will need to give more examples, in order to allay this fear.


The Bottom Line?
--------------------

Each of the experimental modes is effective, and much has been learned from their development and testing. However, the presently available results do not support a conclusion that JT64 will provide substantial advantages over JT65, or JT8 over JT4, or JTMS over FSK441. ISCAT is clearly superior to JT6M in many -- perhaps most? -- circumstances, but its decoder will need to be made faster if the mode is to become popular.

Happily, it seems likely that a number of lessons learned while developing and testing JTMS, ISCAT, JT64, and JT8 can be back-ported to the traditional WSJT7 modes with good effect. I intend to spend some weeks looking into these possibilities before making a final decision on whether WSJT8 merits further work.

As always, the views of others will be gratefully received!

-- 73, Joe, K1JT
Author PA5DD
Forums Member
#12 - Posted: 30 Jun 2010 06:41 - Edited by: PA5DD
Joe, IARU Region 1 has more specific rules for valid Meteor Scatter contact. These fulfill the minimum QSO requirements, but goes further in defining the QSO procedure to fit the specific requirements of MS. This procedure is on page 101 - 104 in the handbook.

Specifically the used reporting system is tabled on page 103. JTMS is as far as I understand not able to transfer reports as "36" or "28".

Why are we so fuzzy about this ? For my part it is about respecting established procedures. These procedures were created in a quasi-democratic system, and at least I feel that I had a say in establishing them.

Experience shows that attention to these matters must be raised at an early point. JT65 EME reporting has silently crept into the Tropo-scene here in Europe, which for sure was never the intention of the national societies in IARU Region 1. The international EME procedure is another purpose specific procedure created to fit a purpose, but fulfilling the minimum QSO requirements. Unfortunately IARU R1 VHF commitee (C5) has not been very proactive in this matter. It would for example have been nice with a "3kHz-dB" scale reporting system to have been standardized for FSK Tropo contacts.

To conclude the QSO procedure you refer to is a neccessary requirement, but not a sufficient when it comes to MS.

By the way I personally back the idea of including convolutional error correction. Also at the price of less short pings decoding. Especially the JT6M "scrabble" game is not very appealling to me. Also the FSK441-alphabet is made with small Euclidean distance between neighbouring numbers, such that a number decoding wrongly is likely to be another number ("26" becoming "27" for example) and hence not revealing itself as a wrongly decoded report - error coding should put an end to this problem.

73 Uffe PA5DD
Author K1JT
Forums Member
#13 - Posted: 30 Jun 2010 10:49
Hi Uffe,

I have read pp. 101-104 of the VHF Managers Handbook, and in particular the reporting system described on p 103.

Have you read the WSJT8 User's Guide, understood the flexibility offered by the 30-bit, 48-bit, and 78-bit message structures, and studied Appendix B of the manual? Have you tried sending and receiving messages like these:

PA5DD K1JT 36
K1JT PA5DD R28

???

If you try them, you will find that they work perfectly.

As stated on page 3 of the manual, "Numerical signal reports may be anywhere in the range –30 to +39". These numbers can serve for either "dB" reports (in ISCAT, JT64, and JT8) or for MS-style reports (in JTMS).

Moreover, if you wish to send a (very unusual!) meteor scatter report such as "59", you can do that as well. It can be conveyed (along with callsigns) in a 14-character free text message.

I read the Region 1 Managers Handbook very carefully before designing the experimental protocols in WSJT8. I assure you that the protocols readily support all guidelines and requirements in the Handbook.

-- 73, Joe, K1JT
Author PA5DD
Forums Member
#14 - Posted: 30 Jun 2010 11:45
Well that's fine then. I was misled by the following passage in Annex B:

"In JTMS mode, 2-bit messages and 48-bit messages involving a signal report are slightly different from those shown above. Where OOO and RO are used in the other modes, JTMS uses 26, 27, R26, and R27 in order to be consistent with standard meteor scatter usage."

If I understand you right using a different report than 26 or 27 will lead to 78-bit message being encoded. Annex B might need an amendment to make that clear.

Although I don't like the idea of a built-in penalty for using other than the lazy standard reports 26 & 27, I can perfectly live with that implementation.

My wrong interpretation of the user guide put me off testing the mode live - so there you are.

73 Uffe PA5DD
Author K1JT
Forums Member
#15 - Posted: 30 Jun 2010 14:08
Hi Uffe and all,

I thought the User's Guide was pretty clear when it says that only "2-bit messages and 48-bit messages involving a signal report" are different in JTMS mode. Sorry that it led you astray.

Please feel free to contact me directly when you think you may have identified a problem. It might be just a misunderstanding, and it's counter-productive if misunderstandings get propagated to others. I can't always be current on all relevant reflectors and forums, as happened last week when I was at the seashore with grandchildren.

As always, I appreciate your interest and your input!

-- 73, Joe, K1JT
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